In part one of this discussion found here I opened a discussion on the validity of the doctrine of original sin with a friend of mine. Here is part 2 of our ongoing discussion.
Interesting point, I’ve never heard it suggested by proponents of original sin that sin is passed only through the father.
I believe we agree that in order for a doctrine to be true it has to be supported by God’s Word through out. For example, if the doctrine of total depravity is biblical God’s Word will support it, if we find evidence to the contrary than the doctrine must be flawed. 1 Cor. 14:33 tell us that God is not the author of confusion; therefore scripture is not going to contradict itself.
1) If you will please consider a couple of thoughts.
i Roman 5:12 begins “wherefore” or “therefore” (ASV). When we see the word “therefore” in the Bible, we need to look and see what it is there for.
a Paul has been pressing the need for man’s salvation. It is a universal need in that all men have sinned, as he has already established in Romans 3:23.
b In Romans 5:12 Paul reminds us that this need for salvation arises because sin was introduced into the world by one man, Adam. And that man’s need for salvation was met by one Man, Jesus Christ. Source of the problem and source of the solution.
c “Therefore” connects verse 12 to verses 9 -10 where Paul speaks of our reconciliation to God through the death of Christ. In order to help us appreciate the death of our Lord, Paul felt it necessary to the show the consequences of the sin introduced into the world by the first man. With sin came consequences; SPIRITUAL DEATH.
d Men suffer spiritual death as a result of their own sin, not the sin of Adam.
ð Romans 5:12
ð Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world (Paul shows how sin was introduced) ,
ð and death by sin; (death is the consequence of sin)
ð and so death passed upon all men, (why does death pass upon all men? The Holy Spirit states it clearly for us)
ð for that all have sinned: (spiritual death passes unto all men for the simple reason that all men have sinned)
2) The guilt of sin is not inherited; it comes only when sin is committed.
i You pointed out that sin is inherited through the father. Consider the revelation of the Holy Spirit through Ezekiel: “The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.” (Ezekiel 18:20 and surrounding context, 14-32)
a Remember Scriptures always harmonize and will never contradict.
3) Consider a few more passages along the same lines:
i Ecclesiastes 7:29 “Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.”
a God creates man upright. It is God who gives us our spirit (Ecc 12:7).
b Look at that verse carefully because we see it is man who seeks out many inventions.
ii Isaiah 53:6 “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
a Notice we are not born astray – we go astray
iii Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
iv Jeremiah 3:25 “We lie down in our shame, and our confusion covereth us: for we have sinned against the LORD our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even unto this day, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God.”
v 1 John 3:4 “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”
vi John 8:34 “Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.”
a In order for sin to be in our lives a person must violate God’s law. What law has an infant violated?
b James 4:17 “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”
ð Inherited sin contradicts the teachings of James who declares that sin originates in temptation and in man’s own lust, James 1:14.
c Ephesians 2:1-3 “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.”
ð Trespasses, sins, walked, disobedience, conversation all denote the active participation in wrongdoing. These words are not passive; they don’t happen to us, we do them.
ð The word by “nature” in the original means by habitual practice.
4) What did Jesus say about little children?
i Mat 19:14 “But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.” Is the kingdom made up of depraved individuals?
ii Matthew 18:3 “And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Is Jesus saying except you become as little sinners?
Here is my reply. It’s an “in the meantime” reply until I gather my thoughts and scratch my head a bit. So while I’m rolling up my sleeves and cracking open my ESV hardback, I’ll leave you with this:
I intend to discuss many of the verses you and the author of the article cite – it may take a while. In the meantime I’m hoping that you can answer a question for me about what you believe.
Here are my question(s)
1.) How do you define sin?
2.) How does one know what/when the “age of spiritual responsibility” is?
I think if you will take the time to enlighten me it will help me to understand your position better. In the meantime I’ll gladly answer the same 2 questions for you.
1.) Sin is any lack of conformity unto or transgression of the Law of God – Westminster Shorter Catechism Question 14
2.) At conception.
Stay tuned Batfans, there’s more that’s sure to follow!
Someone I know emailed me recently the following:
Here is an article for you guys to think about. Check out this link.
I read the link and replied with the following:
I’ve scanned the article and I’d be happy to interact more later but I will say the doctrine of total depravity or original sin is not based on the idea of transmission of sin through the mother to the child – it’s the father which is why Jesus was exempt. The passage in Psalms is in my opinion weighing heavier on the fact of sin from conception than David’s mother being the “cause.”
Sin entered the world through Adam. We all suffer death because of Adam until Jesus regenerates us.
Romans 5:12-21. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:22. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive
This is far from over. He has already replied with a lengthy list of Scripture Proofs. I’m blogging it for both a record of the discussion and to ellicit responses from friends and family. I’ll post the next round soon.
On Monday June 7th 2010, the Lord sent a new lamb to my little flock.
Praise be to God for a safe delivery and healthy baby.
Praise God from whom all blessings flow.
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